R U required to show anyone your legal form 4?

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This topic contains 12 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Matt andrews 4 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #87502

    TJ
    Participant
    • Posts: 9
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    Hello,

    I have looked online without any real answers to this question. I have read the ATF excerpts about “investigators” but this really doesn’t clear anything up. Obviously ATF officers and Investigators are not the same, because why would they reference the same people twice right? But here it is:

    Who has the RIGHT to see your ATF forms besides the ATF? Who has the right to see your private information on these forms?

    Below is what I saw from the ATF, is there anything else more definitive out there?

    Section 12.1 Maintaining proof of registration. The NFA requires that a person possessing a firearm registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) retain proof of registration which must be made available to the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or investigator, upon request. Proof of registration would be on a Form 1 registering a firearm to its maker, Form 2 registering a firearm to an importer or manufacturer, or a Form 3, 4, or 5 showing registration of a firearm to a transferee.

    Section 6.4 Approval of Form 1. Non-FFL/SOT’s may seek approval to manufacture an NFA firearm (e.g., short-barreled rifles, short-barreled, shotguns, wallet guns, etc.) via submission of an ATF Form 1. Upon receipt of the completed Form 1, ATF will process the application and, if approved, a tax stamp will be affixed to the original of the form and the approved application will be returned to the applicant. Approval by ATF will effect registration of the firearm to the applicant. Upon receipt of the approved application, the applicant may make the firearm described on the approved Form 1. The approved form must be retained by the applicant and made available at all times for inspection by ATF officers or investigators.

  • #88981

    davidlofton
    Participant
    • Posts: 120
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    Yes, if you live in a state like Texas where we also have state laws about registration. Remember that your article mentioned is only referring to federal law. There are also several states that have state felony statutes regarding NFA items where you must show proof of NFRTR registration to any peace officer upon demand.

  • #89375

    Jared Billotte
    Participant
    • Posts: 4
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    I think it depends on the state and what you are using for. I was looking at using one to go hunting in PA this year. If you’re using a suppressor, its legal to hunt w/ one, but you need to show proof of ownership along w/ your hunting license.

  • #89378

    Brandon
    Participant
    • Posts: 61
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    It doesn’t matter what state you are in, that tax stamp goes with any nfa item wherever it goes. You have to remember that nfa items are not protected by the 2nd amendment and if any police officer pulls you over with it, there is no way of him knowing if it is an illegal item or not unless he has the tax stamp

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 4 weeks ago by  Brandon.
  • #89529

    Steve S.
    Participant
    • Posts: 10
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    What private info are you worried about them seeing? Your address? The serial number that they can clearly see if they look at the gun?

  • #89532

    SirVyn
    Participant
    • Posts: 70
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    Don’t be afraid of your local police. If law enforcement of any type asks, then I show the stamp copies only. If they want to dig through the trust, I ask they provide a lawyer who is familiar w/ state trust laws and NFA trusts. The police aren’t attorneys, and definitely aren’t up to date on attorney stuff. If the issue is pushed, I call my attorney.
    Now, I’ve only had one run-in w/ my local pd. Officer was being nosy. Which is fine. He had a senior officer w/ him, who stepped in and took a quick look at the stamp copies. Said have a good day, and off they went.

    RSOs or other range staff, I won’t show them anything. There is a range I do business with quite often, one RSO asked.. once. I told him the owner is free to bring his lawyer by and examine my docs. After he insisted to examine my docs himself, I informed him he’s not putting his dick beaters on that folder. Management had gotten involved, and I had a new RSO assigned. Personal info is exactly that.

  • #89536

    TJ
    Participant
    • Posts: 9
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    Ok so thanks to all for the info and points of view. This helps me to understand what others are doing and why they are doing it. So from davidlofton, he has a good point about state law, where in Oregon that isn’t as clear as one would expect. SirVyn happens to show what I’m talking about in regards to the ranges. For those of us whom do not have an attorney on standby this can make a simple yes/no turn into a fiasco with some authorities. Again this is not to poke the bear, cause a problem but just to know what is truly a persons rights and when they are walked all over. For Steve S. the point is not to have to show them your gun, or serial number. Why would they need to see any of that information at all anyways. I’m assuming with your comment you went to your local law-enforcement after you purchase any item and show them your serial number or address right? Didn’t think so.

    The private info I spoke of is just that… My private info. The info that tells someone I have what I have, how I obtained it and what means in which it is legal to have (Gun trust, form 1, or others..) I bring this up because just like I’m sure you all have the problem of going to the range and people wanting to see/shoot what you have. Some explaining they are police officers and need to see the paperwork (as if I could make what I have to the degree in which it was made) to ensure it wasn’t homemade. This is not only ridiculous but an invasion of my privacy. It sometimes makes a good day at the range completely not worth going.

    For those of you out there that still believe law-enforcement is uncapable or unwilling to monitor who has what items (NFA and others) you’re sadly mistaken. The reciprocity between the ATF and law-enforcement is very quick, efficient and likely to be given without authority or warrant.

    • #89537

      SirVyn
      Participant
      • Posts: 70
      Join Date: 10/12/2016

      If an attorney set your trust up.. you should be able to speak to the staff at least during week days for questions and concerns. If not, you should have found a better attorney.

      Oregon does not have the same gun laws as Tx, so take what you get from that site w/ a grain of salt.

      Worst case scenario.. move. =) Just not to Tx, we have enough tourists visiting and not ever leaving.

    • #89586

      Steve S.
      Participant
      • Posts: 10
      Join Date: 10/12/2016

      Why would I go and show them my gun and serial number?? They already have my info, cleo gets a copy of the form 4. Sheriff gets a copy of handgun registration. DMV already has my address and weight! Your info is out there.

      Just because it takes forever to get approved doesn’t mean that form is anything special.

      • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Steve S..
      • #89588

        davidlofton
        Participant
        • Posts: 120
        Join Date: 10/12/2016

        As a police officer here in Texas we have a specific statute that deals with NFA items. Texas peace officers, per our state law, are also allowed to enforce possession laws on some of the NFA items. For that reason, we can demand to see the approved Form 1 or Form 4. But there is NO FREAKING WAY I would ever ask for someone’s trust docs. That’s just too far and ridiculous.

  • #89590

    SirVyn
    Participant
    • Posts: 70
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    Why would I go and show them my gun and serial number?? They already have my info, cleo gets a copy of the form 4. Sheriff gets a copy of handgun registration. DMV already has my address and weight! Your info is out there.

    Just because it takes forever to get approved doesn’t mean that form is anything special.

    Well, to be fair.. there’s a good chance the CLEO is thrown away. And if it’s not, it’s a small dept or office that has it(at least around here anyway.) Second, there’s no reason to not show them your legally obtained and owned fire arm. Especially when it comes to NFA items, they may want to make sure you are doing what you are supposed to do in staying compliant. If they ask, show it. Being too big of a dick could land you in some seriously unnecessary poop.

    And they don’t know if you are actually you. And the real you is doing what’s legally required for you to do.
    It’s like the people who refuse to give law enforcement their credentials… over a trivial traffic violation. Then there’s the “constitutionists”….

  • #89591

    Wyoshooter
    Participant
    • Posts: 3
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    Like it or not, we agree to allow some of our rights to be compromised in order to own these things. If a cop (ATF, local law enforcement, whoever, they’re all the same to me) asks us to prove we’re permitted to have them, we have to show him so. I think they can even just show up at our houses and ask to see the items. That’s part of the price we pay for this privilege.

  • #89593

    Matt andrews
    Participant
    • Posts: 11
    Join Date: 10/12/2016

    I’m not sure about just showing up to a house. If your not a felon on probation then warrant less searches of your house without probable cause are illegal. But nevertheless if it’s private property like gun ranges you don’t have too but they can kick you out. Unless you know your states law and have a copy of that statue with you defining what is and isn’t required for local law enforcement just whip out that copy of the stamp and say “ aren’t you jealous you don’t have one”. Be proud it’s a select club having these stamps!

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Matt andrews.

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