Form 4 Trust vs Individual

Home Forums NFA Tracker Form 4 Questions Form 4 Trust vs Individual

This topic contains 15 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  30 Gun 9 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #77219

    Eaglearcher20
    Participant
    • Posts: 67
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    I am purchasing my first 2 NFA items, an SBR and suppressor. I am leaning towards registering as an individual, but one situation has me concerned. If my wife (hope this situation never happens) we’re to need to use my sbr/suppressor in self defense when I’m not home, how would the law view the situation? Would I be fined, or see jail time? Would she?

    This is my only concern because otherwise no one would ever use either without me being present.

  • #77225
    BMP
    BMP
    Participant
    • Posts: 65
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    Individual Ownership*
    The simplest option would be to register as an individual.  This is the lowest cost option for silencer registration. In this case, you are required to submit fingerprints, a photo and send your Chief local law enforcement (CLEO) a copy of your forms. The big drawback with this option is you have to be with your silencer at all times when it is in use as well as be the only person with access to where it is stored.
    For example, if you accidentally left the silencer in your friend’s truck and he drove off you both would be technically in violation of NFA rules or if you keep your silencer locked up at home but your wife or children have access to the key or lock combination, you are potentially in violation of NFA rules.

  • #77226
    BMP
    BMP
    Participant
    • Posts: 65
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    Your wife using it in a self defense situation is most definitely not good.

    Brad

  • #77262

    chorizo
    Participant
    • Posts: 161
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    At this point after 6 trust items, I filed an individual…..reasoning, I believe the HPA will pass in some form over the next couple of years and if it does, then all of this “have to have a stamp” will be out the window and I will add my individual item to the trust for inheritance issues.

    All of the above scenarios are realistic, however have slim to none potential of happening. You run more risk of a rattlesnake bite than the above happening. Remember ONLY an ATF agent may inspect your stamp/paperwork. Anybody else who asks for it are not authorized and any issue that may result in that will be dismissed as the law is very SPECIFIC on who is authorized to check.

    The likelihood of Bubba Bob having your cans and getting stopped and checked by an ATF agent is about the same as a lottery win.

    • #77300

      toonz176
      Participant
      • Posts: 21
      Join Date: 02/10/2017

      Chorizo,

      As I understand it, the statement that “ONLY an ATF agent may inspect your stamp/paperwork” is not entirely correct; at least in my state. I live in Oregon and according to ORS (Oregon Revised Statutes):

      166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.
      (2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.
      (3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person’s immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.
      (4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law.

      Therefore, as I understand it, a police officer may arrest you for unlawful possession of an NFA item unless you can prove it was registered under federal law. I suppose you could argue you don’t have to show your paper…but you’d be arrested and charged with a felony in Oregon.

      • #77316

        chorizo
        Participant
        • Posts: 161
        Join Date: 02/10/2017

        While I am not about to try challenging that in a court of law, the Federal regulations are quite clear that because the stamp is a TAX DOCUMENT only a federal ATF agent may request the document. Federal supremacy clause and all of that.

        They can only arrest you IF you are in unlawful possession. Item 4 says that if it was registered under federal law then you cannot be convicted.

        An affirmative defense: An affirmative defense to a criminal charge is a fact or set of facts other than those alleged by the plaintiff or prosecutor which, if proven by the defendant, defeats or mitigates the legal consequences of the defendant’s otherwise unlawful conduct.

        In short, it is a law with no teeth. If you don’t show it is registered then they may arrest you, but must immediately drop the case upon proof…..This is what is called an overreach of authority that is not specifically delegated to local and state authorities. A common problem that the ATF agents address all the time. I sat through a brief by ATF agents to State Fish and Game officers (I was helping F&G try silencers and invited local ATF agent to attend) and the topic came up. Next time I get a chance I will ask the agent about Oregon law as I hunt and pass through Oregon often.

        With all of that said…..I keep copies on my phone, and physical copies with me when afield just so I don’t have the hassle of “fighting” the uninformed and I recommend that you do the same as insisting on being “right” just may have negative consequences!

        • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  chorizo.
  • #77270

    Eaglearcher20
    Participant
    • Posts: 67
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    Thanks for the feedback. I decide to go the trust route. I would rather spend the extra $ now and have some peace of mind. Also, if something happens to me I can have beneficiaries set up so the items go to someone in my family.

  • #77352

    Wiebes
    Participant
    • Posts: 6
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    Curiosity question as the form 4 individuals seem to be ahead of the form 4 trust in approval dates. Does anyone know if they go to different agents for approval? Seems like they must.

    • #77362
      Spy C. Weiner
      Spy C. Weiner
      Participant
      • Posts: 38
      Join Date: 02/10/2017

      Maybe & maybe not.
      From what we know as the general public, I would see that the wait times were different because so many more trust form 4’s were trying to squeeze in under the new rules being brought in July 13th, 2016. The saturation for trusts was so much greater that the result we are seeing on the back-end is the date of approval/delay.

      Of course they may have different agents; I just don’t how the energy or motivation to call and ask myself.

  • #77364

    30 Gun
    Participant
    • Posts: 3
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    I would think the wait would be longer for a trust, due to more background checks. As opposed to one for an individual.

    • #77365
      Spy C. Weiner
      Spy C. Weiner
      Participant
      • Posts: 38
      Join Date: 02/10/2017

      You’d be correct in that!

    • #77369

      gunningreg33
      Participant
      • Posts: 42
      Join Date: 02/10/2017

      I think those trust documents submitted prior to 41F’s 13 July 2016 effective date wouldn’t have much more processing in regards to background checks, since, again I’m no expert, but on the second page of the Form 4, for trusts you had to list one person for receiving the item or what not…been sooooo long since I’ve looked at the damn things.

      So I’m not sure more would be required.

      I welcome everyone’s input and corrections.

      • #77372
        Spy C. Weiner
        Spy C. Weiner
        Participant
        • Posts: 38
        Join Date: 02/10/2017

        The ratio of trust to individuals would be different. I was agreeing that for the two form types to be at pace with one another, more filings would have to be reviewed and processed to catch up to the amount of individual forms.

        (for example: say that on June 15th, 2016- there were 200 trusts filings and 70 individual filings. These are strictly for example and not accurate of course… But the shear volume of trusts to individuals was caused by that July 13th rule. More filings are needing passed for trusts than individuals.)

        That’s what I was vaguely agreeing to.

  • #77367

    30 Gun
    Participant
    • Posts: 3
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    You don’t have to have a trust to leave an item for your family should you die. A simple will, fill out a form 5, fingerprints, and background check is all they need. Id go the individual route. Instead of subjecting family to this prior to purchase.

  • #77370

    Eaglearcher20
    Participant
    • Posts: 67
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    I may have been misinformed, but what made me go with a trust was my wife having access to it while I’m not home. From what I understand, if she isn’t on the trust “technically” my sbr and suppressor would have to be locked in a safe that she does not have access to. I have no desire to do that so the $130 for the trust was a no brainer.

    Just an FYI, we have no kids.

  • #77373

    30 Gun
    Participant
    • Posts: 3
    Join Date: 02/10/2017

    DJ
    In your case I would say you are correct. I my case my MG will be in a safe, or I will be present. Should I die the ATF has grace period for form 5 submittals, by family. Where they can possess the firearm.

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